HEART OF DARKNESS (Saunders 1948) - Second generation hybrid. Almost black. Heavy substance.(THE BLACK PIRATE GROUP : Crimson to very dark, almost black maroon. Single to double.)
It is doubtful, that it is in fact a second generation hybrid (F2), why should Dauphnis have used F2A and F2B for breeding his hybrids, if there already was another Saunders F2??
Dr. Carsten Burkhardt on y!groups mail #7527, posted on Mon Aug. 26, 2002, no answer
Dear
All,
during the reading of the new tree peony book I found
to my surprise, that Saunders' hybrid 'Heart of Darkness' is
mentioned by Mr. Hertle as an F2.
The APS files are as
follows: HEART OF DARKNESS (Saunders 1948) – Second
generation hybrid. Almost black. Heavy substance.(THE BLACK PIRATE
GROUP : Crimson to very dark, almost black maroon. Single to
double.)
As far as I know, there are only 2 F2 of the
Saunders's tree peonies, F2A & F2B. Is there maybe an error in
the registration files?
Does 'Heart of Darkness' exist anymore?
Has anyone a picture of it?
posted again on Mon Nov 29, 2005, first answer by Don Hollingsworth:
Carsten and All,
For reasons elaborated below, my summary thoughts on the above are two. Obviously 'Heart of Darkness' is rare, if it still exists. How many second gernation seedling of Lutea Hybrids Saunders may have raised is not shown in any published literature.
Insofar as the 'Heart of Darkness' appears in APS publications of peony names, the earliest I find it is in the originators appendix of the 1976 edition, a list intended to be a comprehensive summary of Saunders named originations. Without doubt, I can say this would have been reproduced from the Lutea Hybrids Tree Peonies group lists which characteristically appeared in the Saunders catalogs I have seen. In other words this name was established by private publication. Assuming that information is factual, then the accompanying short descriptive statement, which includes "Second generation hybrid", is quoted from the originator. I consider that information to be the facts as understood by A. P. Saunders.
Saunders kept detailed records on his crosses and during the life of his peony breeding work numbered additions to the collection mostly seedlings from his own effort) in excess of 17,000. In his later years he created hand written summaries of cross results. Silvia Saunders made available photocopies of these summaries during the later years of the Saunders Nursery, at a time she was also distributing her father's originations and encouraging potential peony breeders to continue working with them. I have two Saunders herbaceous crosses summaries, but not the tree peonies summary. Copies of the latter were made, but I cannot speak to who may have one who might also be responsive to inquiry. The originals I presume are archived along with the other Saunders papers at the library of Hamilton College, Clinton, New York, USA.
The fact that 'Heart of Darkness' does not appear in current offerings strongly suggests its propagation has not been sufficiently successful for it to survive in commercial production. This could easily result from a deficiency of inherent vigor or its being rather narrowly adapted, while coming to flower at Clinton, NY, perhaps poorly adapted for the geographic areas of North America where tree peonies are or have been propagated during its existence.
With respect to the idea of the Saunders F2A and F2B clones being the "only" second generation Lutea Hybrids of Saunders, that it likely an extension of the fact they have often been referenced in publication. This possibly arose intially from the typically exhuberant William Gratwick anecdotes about what he had going on at his garden. That these clones demonstrated fertility in crosses via the early efforts of Nassos Daphnis, also caused their identities to be frequently repeated in publication.
We have had one of them here for many years, that came to us as F2A. I can say that as it grows here Saunders did not give up anything having competitive commercial potential. The fact he gave the plants to Gratwick possibly is an indication that he judged those plants having potential only as breeders.
It seems obvious to me that when it becomes sufficiently important to know how many second generation Lutea Hybrid seedlings were obtained in the Saunders collection, the best reference will be to gain access to the Saunders summary of tree peony crosses and seedlings grown. Don
second answer by Reiner Jakubowski:
Dear Carsten,
When it concerns almost all of the Saunders peonies, whether tree peonies or herbaceous, it appears that the information found in the "registration" books is taken from one or more of the Saunders catalogues issued by Silvia Saunders. The exceptions are that anything found in Part I of the 1976 volume is the result of Byron Gist's compilation and therefore predates anything issued by Silvia Saunders. Gist referenced his sources, but unfortunately he didn't include any tree peonies. The best source for Saunders tree peony information is the article written by Silvia Saunders and David Reath "Botanical Descriptions of 40 Saunders Lutea Hybrids." Sep-1977, Bulletin No. 223, page 18. This article can be found in Best of 75 Years, beginning on page 58. 'Heart of Darkness' (1948) is listed there as an F2.
Gratwick and Daphnis gave the designations F2A and F2B to two F2s obtained from Saunders by Gratwick, sometime between 1949 and 1952, as 12788 and 16718 respectively. Whether 'Heart of Darkness' is one of these only someone who has seen Saunders' seedling records might be able to tell you. Certainly the chronology makes this possible, and Saunders would have recognized the increased hybridizing potential to be found in an F2 hybrid.
The best article for understanding the work of Daphnis appears in 1985 in Bulletin 253, beginning on page 4, "Creating the Daphnis Hybrids: Forty Years of Adventure with Tree Peonies" by Nassos Daphnis and Elizabeth Massey. The parentage information for Daphnis tree peonies provided in the "registration" books provides little enlightenment without explanations of what Daphnis meant by the various short form terms.
I do not know of any sources for 'Heart of Darkness' today. Reiner Jakubowski
answer by Reiner Jakubowski:
Carsten, Gratwick listed 'Heart of Darkness' in a catalogue issued in the early 1970's. This suggests that it was different from F2A or F2B, but most likely you won't ever know for sure until Saunders' records are looked at. Silvia Saunders listed it in catalogue issued 1965. Reiner
From: cpeony17 To: peony@yahoogroups.com Sent: July 21, 2006 Subject: [peony] Re: Heart of Darkness
Hello, Heart of Darkness is part of the collection of Saunders' tree peonies at the Gratwick estate, Linwood Gardens in Pavilion, NY. I am the webmaster for www.linwoodgardens.org, and I have been taking many photos of the tree peonies there since about 2002. I can send a photo of Heart of Darkness to anyone who is interested, or for the Carsten Burkhardt web site. I have just joined this group and do not see a way to attach the photo to this Yahoo group message.
Lee Gratwick had no information on whether Heart of Daarkness is an F2 hybrid or not. Has it been used as a parent?
The plant known as F2A and used for hybridization by Gratwick and Daphnis still exists at Linwood as well, but F2B does not. Lee Gratwick is looking for a plant of Dark of the Moon, a Gratwick introduction that is missing from Linwood Gardens' collection. Carol Whitlock
my answer:
Hi Carol, you have done a good job. There are many nice images and they give a good impression from the garden. I wish I had time to visit it some day ...
Attaching images is not possible in this group, but there is a photo section of the group, where you can upload them. Welcome to the group! Carsten
Reiner Jakubowski 22 Jul 2006 Re: [peony] Re: Heart of Darkness
Hello Carol, I have never seen a record which lists Heart of Darkness as a parent of another peony. It was first catalogued by Saunders in 1948, a copy of which I don't
have, but Silvia Saunders listed it in the 1965 Saunders Nursery catalogue as a "Very rare second generation plant. Almost black, of heavy substance. Still almost unavailable." Reiner
